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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 4:28:26 GMT
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Post by notbadplayer on Feb 2, 2023 4:56:03 GMT
Thanks for gming, Nanjo. This was really good, I particularly liked the characters you came up with, they were all interesting and each brought something unique to the game. Most of all, I'm really glad I'm not BP, since he doesn't participate in even numbered nonary games and had to miss out on this.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 5:35:03 GMT
True!!! It is great to not be BP.
I really liked how the characters came out! I think I have notes for myself if I ever adapted the story (probably looking into appropriate ways to diversify and maybe make some of the characters stand out more) but I love how everyone played the characters and I think the cast was appropriately strange and interesting.
More of a structural thing but they probably needed more glue to help them interact with one another early on, but the individual personalities were awesome.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 10:23:37 GMT
GG! I had a lot of fun with this one. I think Guille ended up being perfect for me, which really helped.
The game had some fun twists and turns. I wasn't too sure of some things early on, but then it all came together. One aspect I really liked is how Mel planned out this whole game in her head, but then a bunch of things went very differently. Notably the 10 'actual' players were different from the 10 original players. It's cool for even the villain to get put in unexpected situations, and it's also a good solution to the usual problem of the Zero player already knowing everything about the game.
So who was it that knocked Sophilia out and put her into the game? From her grandma's own words, she found Sophilia already in the shed, whereas Sophilia was knocked out by someone who'd been waiting for her inside.
Edit: Oh wow, Igniter was the one who came up with BOSS's original ending ideas? Very cool! I figured that was just scripted. There was a cool amount of player autonomy and involvement in this game overall, really.
Edit 2: Wait where the heck's Eddie??
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Post by Neotelenta on Feb 2, 2023 13:59:10 GMT
I had a phenomenal time playing Ren, and had a lot of fun coming up with and acting out his various eccentricities. To your point, it's a shame that Ren and Eddie didn't have much relation to any of the other characters spare for perhaps Ganglion, but it was still a blast all the same.
Also, just to make sure I'm not hallucinating...Was Ren's/Eddie's existence really just Nuwmere going: "Oops, we need one more player. You're a fresh body."? Admittedly as the campaign went on more and more, it was getting difficult to keep track of all the nuances and little details, and I wouldn't mind a brief summation. =P
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 14:11:33 GMT
It’s supposed to sound like it in Ren’s ending but there’s like an automatic loading zone that helmets up the person. It’s kinda contrived but also kinda practical such that a person could get in on accident. That’s why her entrance is defined so differently from the others.
Also I can add Eddie into the epilogue but I’m a hater so I didn’t.
Yes, the whole point of Ren and Eddie is that they have nothing to do with anything (except a vague relationship to cool sci if stuff), and that means they can “leave” the game since unlike all the other players, they’re not destined to be there.
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Post by Neotelenta on Feb 2, 2023 14:35:41 GMT
Nice.
I can't believe we forgettied Eddie, but given the explanation, I suppose that makes sense. He gets to continue living his life as usual.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 14:37:31 GMT
I guess my idea with Eddie is that in the true ending despite spending an eternity in the Eternity Game he yeah just goes back to living his own life. I don’t think he was ever awakened to the Morphogenetic Field.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 14:59:38 GMT
Yeah I got the impression he never had memories of other timelines. Just a shame he was entirely left out of the ending despite his involvement in the game, I guess. Even if he doesn't remember the other timelines, he was still another victim.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 15:07:53 GMT
That’s true. Well maybe Eddie END and epilogue will become like the Valentine’s Day ending and it will be the DLC for the game.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 15:24:20 GMT
HECK YEAH
Also wow I genuinely never twigged that notbadplayer was, in fact, not badplayer. GGWP. No wonder Sophilia felt so different from BP's previous characters.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 15:38:29 GMT
My interactions with nbp were so stylistically different from BP that I assumed that people must have known. In retrospect it was probably hard to tell from just their posts as Sophilia.
Also forgot to shout out both Panda for making cast sprites and Kachu for making Nancy’s. Those added something much needed to the game in terms of style.
Also shout outs to the extra effort from JM playing the two Melanie’s at once and being in the mastermind role and all that.
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Post by Kachu on Feb 2, 2023 15:41:11 GMT
This game was really fun!!
I was very nervous about Nancy before the game began, and I was wondering if I'd be able to get into her head and handle emotional scenes well. I think in the end I'm pretty satisfied with how she ended up though.
I think beyond Ren/Eddie, something that could've helped would be having something else linking some of the cast together, maybe? I felt bad never really utilizing the one on one talks because Nancy had no knowledge of who anyone else there is, beyond Tabitha, who spends most of the game out of commission.
From what I know about the game, and a glance over a lot of role PMs, this ended up seeming to be true for more of the cast as well, so I might actually just be silly and it's not even much of an issue at all, since other players didn't seem to have that sort of struggle.
Once the Mel Reveal came by and I saw what the game was ACTUALLY about, I thought that was really interesting! And it made much more sense as to why someone like Grayson is there even though he has nothing to connect him to the rest of the cast (Though I do like how he ends with David that's kinda sweet.)
Though I guess linking up the cast more than this and things start feeling contrived maybe? I don't want this to come off as a negative post this is really the biggest thing I'd say against the game and it doesn't even make the game much worse for me. So that's not a huge deal, it seems!
I really enjoyed a lot of the timeline hopping. Even if near the end it got to be a bit much, I liked learning things and then getting to put that knowledge in action later on. And I liked playing out the "bad" ends with the bunker, the fire room and the room of determination.
And I think I really love the ideas behind Guille, Marvin, Ganglion and with his ending, Ren. Really ended up enjoying those characters the most I think. Though every ending in this game went so hard it was all good.
Was there ever any plans in development to have someone like a spectator or a late-join player play as Eddie or Tabitha? And also I think the answer is obvious but I'm blanking out here, but Sunbeam in Marvin's ending and Ganglion aren't the same, yeah? Guille as well I read in that role PM that the spirit of Guillermo is another 4th dimensional angel of sorts, akin to Ganglion, but I can't recall if Ganglion and Sunbeam were the same or not.
Also super surprised to see that names ended up changing! Grayson is such a Grayson in my head being into Crypto and a huge asshole and somewhat of a loser with women I can't imagine his name NOT being Grayson.
Thank you for running this game Nanjo and everyone else for playing in it! I really loved it even if at times the pacing was slow (not that it bothered me, but rarely it was hard to jump back in, though Nancy wasn't ever dead for particularly long so maybe I suffered that less. Can't speak for everyone though.)
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 16:13:20 GMT
I told Iago he could control Sunbeam because at first I wanted them to be the same. But I think they’re different spirits that don’t necessarily perceive the presence of the other or cooperate until near the end (like when Sunbeam contacts Marvin so they can pretend that Guillermo is around during Dahlia’s ending).
I think the #1 thing I would change is make Tabitha’s explicit kidnapping public, esp. to Marvin, Nancy, and Bobbi. I would also have those three know each other in some small way (like Nancy goes to visit Tabitha once and gets stopped at the door but Bobbi sees it on camera, etc.)
I would also have not randomly done the Boss roll at the beginning and instead I would have made Tabitha, Bobbi, Melanie, and Sophilia all explicitly fans. And I would have made Guillermo’s fan fiction friend interchangeable between them so that he would try to figure it out.
I modeled the game off of 999 or VLR but part of what was great about NGX were the big backstory things where people had close relationships. I think the game improves if those elements are emphasized.
Grayson was a good name change I have to hand it to Joker.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 16:24:04 GMT
The fact that both of Mel's toyboys ended up being GGs is pretty great.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 16:30:44 GMT
Just another emergent storyline that rules
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Post by JesusMonroe on Feb 2, 2023 17:45:17 GMT
gg everyone, and great job Nanjo! Excited to see how this looks as a game if it ever gets there
I did enjoy myself, and I enjoyed playing Mel. I'll have more to say about the story and characters but I need to dive into things to understand better. I will say at least speaking personally that I had a lot of trouble following what was going on in the game. I appreciated not knowing everything as Zero, but even with a "cheat sheet" I still got confused very often. I'll second Neo that a summation would be nice.
I definitely wasn't able to put as much time into this game as much as I usually am so it's possible that that's the issue and nothing with the writing. But I did feel that there shouldn't have been any "alt" timelines, and I also think not every character needed an ending (moreso that a lot of the individual ending paths could've just been combined). I think the decisions to split the timelines didn't feel as meaningful as they could've too, so whenever we jumped it was always weird to figure out what had happened that timeline especially since every character usually remembered everything from other timelines. But again, this could be my own fault for not paying attention enough. I had no problem with the time-length of the game, just the content length. But it was still clear that you put a lot of effort into writing each timeline and section, and the endings were especially well-written so well done!
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Post by wintercoat on Feb 2, 2023 18:12:43 GMT
why was grayson a pathetic cuck lol
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 2, 2023 18:30:49 GMT
Counterpoint: Grayson is really funny by circumstance.
I can understand that there were A LOT of timelines. I think a couple of things were necessary: Alt timelines help solidify how the game can start with different situations, such as the identity of the Lion, the presence of Ren, Tabitha’s death. I also liked how HATE-B to the end blended the timelines together representing how the world was becoming singular for everyone. I also feel like the endings themselves came out very nice.
But yeah, I would maybe rewrite such that there are less locks and the payoff of a full ending in every timeline.
Then again, it was very hard to tie this Gordian knot in the first place so re-tying it so it all works seems like a pain.
It’s definitely valuable feedback though, and I’ll try to give an overview of the story overall.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 18:50:28 GMT
One thing I felt, that JM reminded me of, is Hate-B has a really weird start point. We go to the torture chamber and get tortured a whole bunch, only to go "oh we can't go to the room of fire anyway" due to locking up the Lion. Then we go do something that we could have done earlier without needing to torture ourselves first. Like, there's no reason (that I recall) why we couldn't have just branched earlier and decided to wait out the timer, back when we were deciding between save/execute, the circuit breaker or the room of fire. Granted 4 timelines branching off one point would be crazy game-wise, but it's weird in-universe. There's a few other weird branch points too, like how choosing the save/execute box doesn't really lead to what happens next.
I do also think there were too many timelines, mainly due to context. As a visual novel maybe it would work, but as a forum game it ends up being too much as everything naturally takes longer in a forum game format. Like, I don't think VLR would work well as a forum game due to the sheer number of timelines, even though that works fine in the video game.
Lastly, on a similar note to the first, the lead up to the 'true' ending felt a bit arbitrary. Like the characters have learned enough from the timelines that they collectively go "let's just escape this time".
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Post by Kachu on Feb 2, 2023 19:05:07 GMT
Was saving/executing Sunbeam really a branching point in the end though? I don't recall it being a choice that actually WAS a choice.
I'm gonna parrot the "too many timelines but it's probably fine as a VN thing" and say that I don't think much would need to be cut, but I feel like some things could've been streamlined more. Alt timelines teaching us more about the situation like with the Lion, and Eddie were really nice and I liked being able to play it out but I think with just how it is as a game that takes real time to transition between segments it felt strange maybe?
But I enjoyed it and I don't think they should've been rushed out to get back to the meat of the game. I don't think they need to be cut entirely, either. I dunno how to do it better than it was done here.
But in a VN with visuals and not trying to coordinate things with 10 other people it becomes a lot easier to have things happen faster. Like reading the game from start to finish as-is of course wouldn't take nearly as long as it did for us to play through it. I don't think there's a better way to balance that out though, or I can't think of it right now.
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Post by Panda on Feb 2, 2023 19:08:23 GMT
I guess I was forgetting that the key to the control room was inside the save/execute box. Still a bit arbitrary but not so bad.
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Post by JesusMonroe on Feb 2, 2023 20:26:27 GMT
If anything I almost think it would be work better as a completely linear VN. There's a lot of timeline jumping, but it's all in a very determined order and since characters always remember past timelines there's still a lot of cohesion in the story. Sure it removes the "fun" element of getting to choose your own way but I think it could work.
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Post by Planetbox on Feb 2, 2023 22:00:48 GMT
Yes thanks for running this Nanjo it was really cool. I was impressed by how many awesome elements were fit in here without it feeling too crowded. Everything tied together in the end even with all the crazy timeline stuff going on. Like I said before, this felt a lot like a ZE game.
I think Grayson was probably my favorite character but Guillermo was such a cool character concept. And Melanie was awesome as a villain, though obviously I had a different perspective of that.
Though while I echo this would be a great VN I feel like there weren't enough game-y parts to me? Like the confrontation with Mel was really cool but it made me realize that there wasn't a whole lot of other sections where it felt like our choices were impacting the narrative. Like I feel like especially late-game, I was mostly just reacting until the plot continued. I think there was less action than prior games overall.
I actually did like that every character had an ending though, especially because of how well-written they were. And some like Ren and Sophilia's were brief enough to not cause a huge problem. And I feel like we hit the timelines in a good order, since I spent the whole time waiting to finish the Room of Determination, and when we finally did it easily beat my expectations.
I was hoping Tabitha had a short role PM though just to see what actually happened to her at the beginning of the game. The thematic stuff with Link's Awakening was really cool too. Just the setting as a whole really gave this game a unique vibe that was a lot of fun. Also seeing my game show up was nice.
I'll admit I wish I could have participated more than I liked, but college has been a lot. But it was still a really awesome and fun story. Now where the heck's my wedding invite Nanjo
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 3, 2023 0:22:14 GMT
I think it's valuable feedback to say that, as a forum game, it would have been great to simplify the timelines. It would have been great to just 4-6 timelines since that's a sweet spot for gaming. As a VN, it could probably stay pretty similar.
Also, the feedback about the lack of gameplay elements seems true to me. I tried my best, and I can probably send my "gameplay" chart that shows what the gameplay intentions were along the timelines, but some things didn't spark as much inspiration as I hoped. I would rephrase some things for sure.
Thanks for the love and enjoyment guys!
I definitely loved writing the different endings and writing for the characters, so I can definitely say that you guys did a good job.
Room of Determination being satisfying is good. I wanted Ren to be used as an unintentional key to a puzzle that Melanie didn't know existed. And I had to set up a lot of things to make it work. In general, I'm very happy with how I brought together story elements in some parts. Some stuff like the Goo room was really fun to do.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 3, 2023 0:31:26 GMT
Character songs:
Ren - Weird Science
Ganglion - Birdhouse in Your Soul
Sophilia - Girls Just Wanna Have Fun
Grayson - Future Soon / Scotty Doesn't Know
Guillermo - Little Lion Man
Melanie - Lovefool / Paparazzi
Bobbi - Hot N Cold
Nancy - Say It Ain't So / The Reason
Marvin - Strawberry Fields Forever
Datakot - When You Were Young
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Post by Kachu on Feb 3, 2023 0:44:51 GMT
On a different note, something that I'm curious about.
Was there any sort of specific order in which the cast was made? Were there any major revisions as things developed in planning? Did you start with a core idea like with Mel/Bobbi/Tabitha and split off from there, or something else?
Not that I need or want a super in depth answer I'm just curious how everything ended up falling together, I really like the cast as a whole and their own unique stories being told in their endings. I just wonder if there's any big late developments or additions here.
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Post by Planetbox on Feb 3, 2023 1:14:59 GMT
Was there ever any plans in development to have someone like a spectator or a late-join player play as Eddie or Tabitha? Also this is a good question that Nanjo did not answer I think >:[ Also where did the E-2 name come from
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on Feb 3, 2023 1:54:22 GMT
My “Sunny” role was Tabitha, yeah. She would be really active during Nancy END and Bobbi END and that’s it. I didn’t add the Tabitha content in Ganglion END until we got there and it kinda made sense to add it.
E-2 is purely a meta thing E-2=C=12 and this is my second nonary game (2) that begins with E (Emissary, Eternity).
As for history of the game, I definitely started with the character of Melanie and the idea of a game created by a narcissist that was purely for their entertainment and enjoyment.
My earliest note sheet I jotted down in 2021 said the following:
Narcissist - Actually owns this world and plays with them like dolls Beta - Lived through this existence thousands of times Incel - Ambitiously evil power-broker; stalker/killer Anarchist Billionaire Angel - A being from the Morphogenetic Field who exists as a guardian; is probably the Beta character who got destroyed Actor - A fictional character, simply an idea with sentience Naive - Used as a proof of how free will works, can kill Butcher - Randomly chosen; has recurring memories of being murdered; can escape by not being chosen Teacher - Is going to die, erased her memories of talking to zero; wrote book
So this is almost everyone but no Nancy and no Sophilia. Many people are very changed. I’ll probably talk more about my process, but you can see that I started with a lot already
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Post by Panda on Feb 3, 2023 10:43:36 GMT
Oh wow, random dude was an idea from pretty early on huh?
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