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Post by dootdoot on May 5, 2023 15:13:16 GMT
Lack of topics was due to me not being sure how to incorporate them. All the mysteries were designed in a very linear fashion, where solving the current thing leads directly to the next thing. Maybe I should have been more explicit about that, in lieu of topics? the mysteries being designed in a linear fashion kinda made topics more necessary? at any given moment we would have lots of evidence and things to solve but no idea where to start or what to do first. it increased the sense of frustration because it's really hard to tell whether you just don't get something or if it's a part of the case you're not meant to solve yet Like I dunno how this was for other killers but this one reached a peak for me in ch4 where I was trying to figure out how far along everyone was in the trial so I'd know how much longer until it was time for my post trial and I honestly couldn't figure out where they were supposed to go next while having all the information to solve the case
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Post by Kachu on May 5, 2023 15:14:39 GMT
I think the worst thing I can say about F9 is that I wanted more.
There was a lot of the game that was really really good and I wanted more of it, so of course I'd want more of that, but also some parts of the game sorta feel like they were somewhat... strange? And could've used more to make it work?
The cast was really good! I liked everyone a lot. I wanted to see more out of it, though. Like, Felix and Neuron had some really interesting stuff cooking in the background and all that being revealed at the end of chapter 2 was really exciting! (Side node: I don't think I brought it up ever, but I feel like the sequence of events with Yugi -> Xhuli and Felix's reveal was a little strange? Mostly having it in between the two big moments revolving around Felix made things a little awkward imo. Not like its the biggest thing or anything though.)
Though, as interesting as this was with Felix, it felt like it really didn't go anywhere? And it's not that I have any idea where it would go, exactly, but I found it a little strange that it never really came up for anything after the chapter ended.
The cast here was really strong and I loved the theme with the game that ended up happening with Faye and the rest of the survivors (as unintentional as this all was) I do wish it was expanded on during the game itself though. Like I think back to little scenes like in F4 where Florian stole talents and Oscar had a moment of high tension, or when in F6 all the players during chapter 2 discovered all the hanging bodies in the cave, each a victim of Bennett's bounty hunts. While these also technically served to set up the mysteries later on in the game, they also existed as an opportunity for the characters to really shine.
F9 ended up having the school dance and the pool scene which I really loved, but they ended up sort of just happening. They didn't exist to build up tension between characters or to provide an opportunity with GM support to let the cast interact with each other, feel like they're close with each other, or anything like that, we just insisted on having a DANCE (and I think the pool scene kinda just happened somehow?) But scenes like this can help set up and accomplish character arcs more easily, and can give players a platform to exhibit their characters more. But of course this can also be done without any of that!
The emotional payoff and experience I had with Faye at the end of chapter 4 was really, really good. But I wonder if it struck similarly for the rest of the survivors at the time? And I wonder if some GM enforced friendship scenes or conflicts with hope/despair could've served to set this up even more, from the start of the game. Maybe I'm too used to older games or what I remember from them, though. This is far from a complaint with the game! Like I lead with, I really just wanted to see more of all this amazing stuff.
Though adding things like this would've made the game last quite a bit longer, I think. And on top of that doing all of this in such a short timeframe with only one GM sounds like a throbbing headache. I loved F9 and its story and characters, I really wish I could've just been friends with everyone and have a big fte with everyone haha. But in chapter 3/4 I sorta died in that area mostly! Whoops.
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Post by Panda on May 5, 2023 16:41:23 GMT
the mysteries being designed in a linear fashion kinda made topics more necessary? at any given moment we would have lots of evidence and things to solve but no idea where to start or what to do first. it increased the sense of frustration because it's really hard to tell whether you just don't get something or if it's a part of the case you're not meant to solve yet Like I dunno how this was for other killers but this one reached a peak for me in ch4 where I was trying to figure out how far along everyone was in the trial so I'd know how much longer until it was time for my post trial and I honestly couldn't figure out where they were supposed to go next while having all the information to solve the case Case 4 was a special case though. It's a three-part trial, you can't solve part 3 until after part 2. At the time you were still in part 1, where there quite simply wasn't a path towards solving it with only the evidence at hand. I did try to come up with topics, but nothing seemed suitable. So I went with trying to guide people instead. Chapter 2's post-trial definitely had too much going on. There wasn't really a way for me to spread it out that I could see, though. That's the chapter where Felix's backstory had to be explained as it's when Neuron died, but it's also the point in the game Yugi has to become Xhuli. There was no way around it. Maxwell was entirely Felix backstory, so I wasn't sure what more could be done with it. I definitely had too much on my plate to also do character-based events. Though I included everything people asked for in surveys (I think) at least. It's super helpful when people have ideas in their surveys for stuff, or just sign up with characters that are easy to make use of (like Korrigan and his suit, or Ige being Ige). I was reminded of how much I appreciated all the people who signed up with strong intent to be a victim or killer, as the game can be built around that. It'll often be a little lackluster if the GM doesn't have much to work with; thankfully the surveys were sufficient to fill out every spot in the game outside of chapter 3's victim, so it worked well. None of the cases just picked some inactive player to be a victim: every character involved was impactful.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on May 6, 2023 6:08:13 GMT
‘Twas a cool game!
Some positive things that were fairly distinctive from the game runner side:
+Great Timeline (Just 50 days? WOW!) +Quality Mysteries (Always pretty easy to pick up and game at every intersection. Really impressive across 4 cases (or at least the parts I was conscious for…) (I liked how we pushed our own path through them !) +Great overall story (The story of the st hope class over the course of the four chapters was awesome! Each chapter had story beats that ensured we would change and grow. I’m really impressed by how the initial set up was given and how you got JM and SC involved) +Magic was a great mechanic!
Oh and then there was a great cast that we can talk more about. I super loved interacting with them! Every chapter had emotion and weight and feelings that changed and didn’t feel repetitive.
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Post by satan on May 6, 2023 9:47:46 GMT
*ssssssssip*
Alright. Let me put on the cynical asshole hat for a minute. Get all the angry gunk out first. Let's also start small and work our way up.
First, Nanjo. Holy shit, my guy. I appreciate that you were trying to do a lot of stuff dueing the DLs, but there is a point in *not* doing things instead. So many times, I just felt like there needed to be a couple days to just breathe and relax out of character, but while Xhuglgigi was a thing, there was always SOMETHING happening.
I will agree, good for character interaction. At the same time, holy fuck, my guy, slow your roll sometimes.
Second, locations. Some of them felt really thought out and interesting, and some were carried by either their demon lord or nostalgiabait. Sissus, to me, is an excellent case for both. I personally adore Sissus. His personality really makes the Chapter 2 DL pop in my mind, since he's so very active in it. At the same time, there's so little to technically 'do' that we essentially have to make our own amusement. It can be a very hard balance to strike, which is why it is here instead of further down, but... Sometimes we hust need something from the GM to do, ya know?
Speaking of, trials. Holy fuck. Now, let me preface by saying that I am an idiot and do not do thought puzzles very easily. At the same time, these trials were an intensely frustrating experience. It can be very hard to disassociate oneself from the knowledge that they have, but we also had alibis for a reason. It was always useful to have something initial to fall back on to examine, and I dearly, dearly wished that more of my actions leading up to the trials were more detailed than just "you did the thing everyone else was doing."
I guess if you were trying to avoid casting suspicion on any one character in particular, it makes sense? Especially for the Chapter 3 trial, where I would have actively been on Darren's case, but... I prefer that to the bland, boring, tasteless description I got.
Finally. End of game. This one is on me. I claim full responsibility for this one. I know I was probably not even taken seriously when I initially said it, but once I got the confirmation that I could fight, I was already plotting how it would work out. I should have been in contact with Panda the moment I made that decision, instead of just keeping it to myself out of some mistaken desire to place it at an opportune moment. As a result, the end product is rushed. Half-baked. Bland and boring. Something I lost interest in, because it ultimately wasn't fun anymore.
The change of scenery was appreciated. At the same time, I wanted a coliseum precisely to sustain that interest, because there's so much more mental movement involved with a closed space instead of an open air sauna surrounded on all sides by death pits. And it's not like Aardok couldn't just open up more death pits anyway, even in the coliseum.
Alas. 'twas not to be.
Alright. Cynical asshat off, good boihat on.
This cast functions as well as it does because each member functions on their own before we function as a whole. Every individual character is their own entity that can and usually do head off to do their own reasonable actions. Sometimes, we do get a little funky (Hawk goosing Ige comes to mind), but that can also be called "playing with the scene".
Speaking of, I wish I had found my Role PM sooner, because I would have definitely put a lot more juicy details behind the scenes. Yet that's my favorite part: there's so much going on behind the scenes that there's always a story to tell.
I do wish Felix had more time to wax poetic about Maxwell. I had a thought about including him into my own backstory, since I purposefully left it blank, but decided against it. The fact that All The Things Just Had To Happen NOW is just a shame, and frankly speaking, I was also in a position to push on it. And never did.
I wish we could have had more time to play with this cast. It would have been nice, I think, to actually have the time to examine Felix's backstory publicly.
Again, alas. 'twas not to be.
If I think of more targeted things, I'll make another post. For now, that is all.
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Post by pancakes on May 6, 2023 10:29:00 GMT
F games were always about making your own fun during daily lives, there's no obligation for anyone's character to be present in every scene if you don't want to be / if it doesn't feel right for your character. The alternative to anyone not really offering anything up and doing nothing is just letting the thread flop for days. Personally, I appreciated all of the activities that Nanjo cooked up, like the dance and pool scene, for instance. These moments can also really flesh out characters, Caitlin's whole fight in the Chapter 3 pool scene was really really good for her char, for example. It's been said before but F games succeed most when people give others opportunities to make their own characters shine.
Also as for GM events I actually see what you're saying but on the other hand, I appreciated a shorter game. GM events can be fun like the major games in F7 but those games can run for like 60-70+ days as opposed to F9's 50 (which really should have been around 45-46 and was actually delayed further cause of things like holidays.) As for the alibi stuff, a lot of what you're asking for was just moved to the main thread for everyone to see in this game, I imagine it makes it easier for the GM and I didn't particularly see a huge difference. This grievance is understandable though tbh cause detailed alibis can be fun, esp. if you have a large role in the crime. Oh, also, with split alibis, this could also sometimes interfere with trials since we'd have to spend a day basically reposting our alibis in the thread, so there's that too.
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Post by pancakes on May 6, 2023 10:30:18 GMT
Also I have no idea what "Hawk goosing Ige comes to mind" is referring to lol
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Post by wintercoat on May 6, 2023 12:43:08 GMT
I think it’s really funny that people like the pool scene and see it as a boone for Caitlin’s character, because I think it’s so messy on my end lol
But I guess that I just need to have more confidence when it comes to crazy shit like that
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 13:11:48 GMT
The change of scenery was appreciated. At the same time, I wanted a coliseum precisely to sustain that interest, because there's so much more mental movement involved with a closed space instead of an open air sauna surrounded on all sides by death pits. And it's not like Aardok couldn't just open up more death pits anyway, even in the coliseum. Proving your own point about communication there. I had no idea that was something you specifically wanted for the scene. As for alibis, I was already explicit beforehand that F9 would drop them. It's the reason F9 even exists at all, as it helped manage the workload. And as Pancakes said, anything that would have been in an alibi was just in the thread instead. I am well aware that F9's cases had some clear issues. But I don't think alibis were the problem. Adding alibis wouldn't have helped; in fact, it would have exacerbated issues by adding even more information overload. (Alongside the usual issue of important details getting lost in alibis.) I've mentioned this before, but I wonder if mysteries just need to be simplified even further. By my understanding, I'm one of the few players who enjoys solving them as puzzles. Maybe they should be designed character first, mystery second. Though pre-planning mysteries is still important, as it's necessary to avoid delays during the game (and also to help manage the workload). Okay actually, here's a question: how did people feel about F6-1? Widely regarded as a particularly simple mystery that got solved very quickly. Should all mysteries be like that? It's all well and good saying "character first, mystery second" but that's a very vague concept to actually put into practice. I'm interested in specifics. If anyone's willing, I'd also be interested to hear what people liked about F9's murder scenarios, divorced from the process of actually solving them. Is that something to aim for, or is simpler still sufficient because the focus should be on the characters themselves anyway? Was it necessary that the first case had the knife-camera-grip trick, and Bruce going through the vents to steal the camera?
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Post by wintercoat on May 6, 2023 13:44:12 GMT
I have some interesting opinions about the current state of mystery-solving but I can’t type them up until tomorrow. Not all of it is negative, mind you, but I think the thing I’m most interested in figuring out is the flow of a mystery, since it seems we all have a different philosophy about that.
Hard mysteries are fine, but in cases such as F9-3/4 it just feels like many of us players had no idea where to start, since contradictions in the trial post alibis were not as clear. Having the old alibi system made it clear for everyone what EXACTLY their character was doing. I think that this current alibi system didn’t give people much to work with on their end. F9-2 had four people just completely unaccounted for and, aside from Faye, there was little to prove that they were innocent—both in the trial and personal alibis. A lot of mysteries felt like guessing games and weird logical leaps and red herrings for no reason.
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 13:56:36 GMT
The proof that they were innocent was supposed to be that it was impossible for them to know about the secret route onto Planet Sissus. Unfortunately accomplice theory is the bane of my existence. All of my safeguards in cases 2 and 3 (and maybe the other two) were broken by "what if someone decided to help the killer for some reason even though it could lead to them being sentenced at the trial instead".
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Post by Kachu on May 6, 2023 14:42:05 GMT
I think the alibi system in F9 was really good! (Though yes detailed alibis are more fun, this is definitely MUCH easier)
I think the trials were fun, and I don't mind them being hard. I even liked being really really desperate during chapter 2 (but it lead to quite a bit of burnout for me.)
If I had to put a finger on it, there's only a handful of things that really made me go "WHAT!?" about the trials. Like I think the changes that F9 trials needed for them to have been smoother would've been just some minor tweaks. Like I think F9-2 could've used a little more of a nudge towards the asteroids, for example. Like "The students investigating the belt notice that these asteroids seem to be the material the Sissus statues are carved out of."
With chapter 3 and 4, it's just I think for me it's more of just a lot to work with at once? Like we didn't get a ton of confirmation on things, or I feel like that was the case maybe my memory is trash. And in each case there was a thing or two that we really couldn't figure out but I'm not sure if that's us just being totally oblivious (like with the poison not being noticed) or the thing we're looking for was just really difficult to find. (I'm curious about chapter 4 because the more I think about it even with it's three stage process, I wonder what the expected route was? Because to me it feels like there's not really any room to solve Korrigan's murder 'realistically' because as soon as we're onto the idea that he's dead the case just ends, since we'll know it's Faye. This isn't a complaint just genuinely curious)
I also think (and I don't think there's a fix for this) that it was hard for a lot of us to be on the same page, visually. I believe this was a problem in each chapter where I had a hard time figuring out what the crime scenes even looked like. I don't think there's anything anyone can do about that though.
I think I'm getting ramble-y and scattered so I wanna end this post of with saying that I had a ton of fun solving each case when I was able to despite the issues it had. (Though I also got really really smacked in the face with chapter 4 and it wasn't that fun until we started moving along with the Isadora stuff. Hitting the walls SUCKED but I LOVED the rest of it!) And I think a little more of a guiding hand when it comes to things could be beneficial in the future, instead of tuning down the difficulty. And the public alibis are really good! I'll say it again. This system allows for you to easily tweak individual alibis too if you want to, and that can just be for character moments. Conceptually, I think every mystery here was super interesting and it's harder to critique each trial now that I know the answer instead of in the moment me being upset I can't figure out what makes Nico innocent. But it's not like that version of me is properly able to critique either.
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 15:03:21 GMT
The idea with part 3 is that first you realise Faye faked her death, as that explains the blood not reacting to Golau. Then that means someone else had to have died (because Sin went up), and that most likely Faye is the one who killed them. That leads you to the tunnel excursion with Korrigan, which until now has been irrelevant. There's also his conspicuous lack of a familiar, plus the fact that it would be easier to hide him being dead with the suit, e.t.c. Once you have the idea that Korrigan is dead, it's easy to prove (unmask him and/or cast Golau on him).
Though it definitely could have been solved the other way around. Just, realising Korrigan is dead immediately points you towards Faye being the killer, so I tried to set it up to make Faye faking her death be the first thing the players deduce.
Edit: The entire reason the rules specify "name both the killer and who they killed" was for chapter 4. Even if you realised Faye faked her death, is the mastermind and likely is also the killer, you couldn't just vote for her and end the trial, as you theoretically could in past games.
I wonder if more visual aids, like chapter 1's crime scene map or chapter 3's 'bucket' drawing, would have helped. Of course that's more work for the GM. I worried that visuals would make some parts too obvious (E.g. if the chapter 1 vents were on the map, that would look really suspicious because of course they have to be relevant if they're on the map). However in hindsight maybe it's better to lean obvious rather than obfuscating it, if a GM is presented with that choice while writing a mystery. Like maybe it would be pretty suspicious if the bucket got a drawing and none of the other evidence did, but I've found that ends up not really being an issue in practice anyway.
Nico's prosthetic was definitely just a bad mystery. I was struggling to come up with anything, so I waited to see the cast, and then I still struggled. There were quite a lot of moments where I really struggled with what the 'trick' would be to make a certain deduction that's necessary for solving the rest of the mystery. I came up with solutions eventually, but those tended to be the moments where everyone got stuck and frustrated so clearly they weren't good solutions. (E.g. I needed something that could lead to people deducing that Faye wasn't pushed off the tower. Eventually I came up with the 'it was so damaged that two people couldn't be up there at the same time' thing. However that was another part people got stuck on for ages.)
By contrast chapter 2's asteroid was a core concept from the early stages of the mystery, so it works a lot better. The only issue there was perhaps needing some extra guidance like you said, such as a comment about the asteroids or whatever. It was a solid mystery that just needed tweaking, whereas Nico's prosthetic being unable to make poison was just a bad concept overall that couldn't be salvaged.
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Post by Kachu on May 6, 2023 15:38:10 GMT
Ohhhh! The vote for the killer/victim thing does make more sense now! Though I think Korrigan is still the easiest to say is the victim, there's always the chance of getting it wrong. I see I see, I get that now.
I actually really felt a lot of things about the visual in the blimp with the mud on the controls in chapter 4. I was so taken aback by it, like I don't know if I'd have ever guessed they were footprints or anything like that without the visual. I think in chapter 1 it was okay, and the one in 3 helped a ton too, I don't know if I'd ever got it being a glass beaker otherwise (despite the description of it being somewhat obvious looking back at it.) I don't know how you'd make a visual for all the messy stuff on the floor making the black poison less obvious, or the bucket being in the corner means it came after the fight (that wasn't a huge kicker in the end though.)
In retrospect the tower thing was me being foolish over it being poorly designed, I think. I was really insistent on her being shoved off the tower for whatever reason.
Yeah I agree chapter 2's asteroid is much better, maybe it's on me for not paying closer attention to that possibility.
I think a lot of this can also be made simpler if a second person/GM can read over each mystery and potentially point out any flaws like this. But not every game will have two GMs anyways. They were all fun to me regardless in the end even if I'd definitely not say that in the middle of each roadblock.
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on May 6, 2023 16:13:14 GMT
I didn't play chapter 3 or 4 so I can't comment on those, but I will say the following:
Public Alibis were well-done. Secret alibi's still have their place and create a different and enjoyable dynamic to mysteries, but unless a GM has time to pre-write them all, it takes too much effort to do them.
F6-1 is kind of bad. I think a short and simple mystery just isn't as exciting as a 3-day trial with 2-3 stages of deduction. This is just my opinion, and I respect gamers who don't like something so frustrating.
Ideally mysteries are character-oriented in some level. I mean, the Darren portion of chapter 3 trial FREAKING RULES because he started focusing the trial on him individually. And then it was a lot of fun to have Su-Ah's comments in chapter 2 trial where she seemed really suspicious but like there was a strong desire for everyone to believe she was a victim. These character beats make for great parts of the trials. But you can't get to those pay-offs without first being confused and solving some mysterious bits. And in my games when someone was given a really funny alibi, sometimes it was swept to the side because people were more focused on the mystery. And that's okay, not everything has to be important, but it just goes to show that it's hard to make the trials have explosive character moments without taking someone hostage.
---
Okay and on DLs, like... I don't want anyone to be overwhelmed or get FOMO, but I really feel like part of the reason why people like this cast so much is that:
1. people came in with strong ideas because of the long layover between games.
2. A good initial concept set up by Panda that lead to high amounts of FTE-stuff.
3. The DLs were jammed with characterization and content, each of the first three DLs being pretty big and memorable.
I feel like feelings about this game would be very different without the mondo DLs. And the great thing about DLs is participation is highly optional, and it's easy to slip in and out of the RP without knowing much context.
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Post by dootdoot on May 6, 2023 17:12:14 GMT
I worried that visuals would make some parts too obvious (E.g. if the chapter 1 vents were on the map, that would look really suspicious because of course they have to be relevant if they're on the map). However in hindsight maybe it's better to lean obvious rather than obfuscating it, if a GM is presented with that choice while writing a mystery. Like maybe it would be pretty suspicious if the bucket got a drawing and none of the other evidence did, but I've found that ends up not really being an issue in practice anyway. i just want to comment because I kind of agree with it a lot. Not that everything should be obvious but quite a few times during this game it felt like things were getting really bogged down with too much effort to obfuscate things like the "missing" Sissus statue from the temple or the glass shards in the same case. I think we actually got very lucky that people straight up forgot Faye had a handprint on the back of her jacket back in ch4 because that feels like a snag that could have killed a suicide theory before it even began
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Post by Doctor Nanjo M.D. on May 6, 2023 17:19:15 GMT
I just enjoy Panda's art.
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 17:35:12 GMT
I'd disagree about the 'missing statue' personally, that's pretty necessary to sell the plan. It doesn't seem like that one was going too far, though I'll wait to see what other people think about it.
The glass shards were a cool mystery I shamelessly stole from a book, but it didn't play out that way. They ended up being extraneous for sure.
The handprints were my attempt at stopping people from immediately suggesting suicide. I wanted something that strongly suggested Faye was murdered, otherwise the entirety of part 1 would have been short-cutted. Unfortunately Caitlin suggested suicide really early on anyway.
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Post by dootdoot on May 6, 2023 18:35:08 GMT
I understand why these elements were in the case I'm just saying it's really rough to have to basically run against the evidence to solve the case because it kinda discourages the correct theory from even being proposed. Like it's already tough to conclude someone could mold their own asteroid Sissus statue but it really goes off the deep end when the evidence says a statue was missing and surely we would have found it if it wasn't used
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Post by Kachu on May 6, 2023 18:45:17 GMT
Yeah I think I got that feeling a lot too. Like it took us so long to figure out that the Sissus statue was from the asteroid belt because usually with these games and with mysteries something like this is pretty cut and dry. I think that was the point, to sort of subvert that and make it harder for us to figure out what happened. Maybe we're all on the same braincell and didn't really think around that box but it was kinda hard and it only fell into place right at the end (even then we didn't really get the idea it was from an asteroid we had to jump through a whole "can we MAKE a big statue using the rock making spell and prep this murder a week in advance" and I dunno what that really says about this but I think we've already all agreed that more nudges towards the asteroids should've been given.)
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 18:50:35 GMT
Then the issue there isn't the red herring, it's the lack of additional elements pointing to the asteroid theory, I would say. For a trick to be a trick, it needs to start out being something you wouldn't think to question. The asteroid thing is the final part of the mystery, so you want a situation where something you took for granted this whole time turns out to have been a trick. If it were a smaller part of the mystery then maybe it should have less misdirection, but this is the big twist. It needs to be set up in a way that initially doesn't arouse any suspicion.
Unless, as I've been saying, the preference is for simpler mysteries where none of that matters.
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Post by pancakes on May 6, 2023 18:53:08 GMT
I just wanna say that I guessed the vent thing soo quickly pat myself on the back for that one
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Post by Kachu on May 6, 2023 19:07:21 GMT
yeah well i actually live in the vents so
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Post by Panda on May 6, 2023 19:10:31 GMT
In the vents with the dancing cockroaches
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Post by JesusMonroe on May 6, 2023 23:48:38 GMT
A few things I'll add to this. I'll say that I broadly wasn't paying too much attention to the game (but still more than F7/8) so I can't speak too much on specifics
First of all as a GM, the worst thing that can happen is when a player gives up. It's one thing if someone feels slighted, it's another if someone's annoyed that things weren't tailored to their own experience. These games take a lot of work to run and pretty much are fueled by player participation. It's very disheartening for people to just not bother participating and is the equivalent of taking the ball and going home
Daily lives usually just sputter out and die if nobody takes the initiative to start something. When I was GMing I would spend all my time on trials so they very much are just times to relax and have fun (I actually would've preferred if the pre-demon realm phase was longer, even if I had never gotten another post in). Sure there might be more time for the GM to focus on daily lives if all the trials are pre-written but I'm not sure how much desire there actually is from players for that to happen. And in my experience the more things are "planned" in a game, the more likely it is players will do nothing because they're afraid it'll go against the "plan". So this feels to me like a non-problem but just my opinion
My mystery-writing strategy for F1 and everything in F3 except for F3-2 was following the "unique alibis" strategy + giving a few characters a "moment" whether it was related to the mystery or not (basically like an actual DR game). I like people to go back and say "Yea Ch1 was Adam and Frank's chapter, Ch2 was Leslie, Tabitha, and Jenny's chapter, etc". What I'll also say is that with this strategy the mysteries took FOREVER to write, especially the alibis, and it's not worth it because it's a lot of effort that isn't guaranteed to be reciprocated on the player end
If I ever did do another F game it would definitely lean towards the public alibi approach. I would essentially just put everything in the thread in chronological order, and then just asterisk the individual testimonies that can't be verified
Finally I also tend to lean towards the strategy of giving a clue "two meanings". There's usually an obvious apparent meaning, and that's really just meant to obfuscate the truer second meaning. I don't have a great example on hand besides knowing I did it for F6-4, but I'd say this is a very hit or miss strategy. Most players will just readily accept the first meaning and the case gets stonewalled from there. Usually when I'm on the player end in these trials it's incredibly difficult to follow things, but when I'm on the GM side I think "this clue will be way too obvious and blow the whole thing open unless I obfuscate it."
There's no real right answer on how to do these. I will always be pretty adamant that trials should be character-driven rather than be a Rube Goldberg setup of clues. I'm definitely in favor of removing trial time limits entirely. I get that it's lame that the killer really just can't win, but these are story-driven games and unless the point is for the killer to win I just don't think it's fun for a mystery to be unsolved and I'm sure the killer's player would rather die than escape anyway. It gives more freedom for the trials to err on the less simple side when the only real consequence is that it might take more time to solve
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Post by Panda on May 7, 2023 8:34:02 GMT
I'm definitely in favor of removing trial time limits entirely. I get that it's lame that the killer really just can't win, but these are story-driven games and unless the point is for the killer to win I just don't think it's fun for a mystery to be unsolved and I'm sure the killer's player would rather die than escape anyway. It gives more freedom for the trials to err on the less simple side when the only real consequence is that it might take more time to solve This makes sense for a group that particularly enjoys solving mysteries, but I don't think it's a good general strategy. Once momentum has been lost in a game, it's almost impossible to recover it. I've seen that time and time again in the RPs we've done over the years. In my mind the best trial is one that keeps players engaged, moves at a generally smooth pace and then finishes in a reasonable time frame. That's part of why I tried to keep DLs on the shorter side (though long enough that everyone's satisfied), and why I tried to keep the game as a whole short too.
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Post by pancakes on May 7, 2023 9:52:34 GMT
I wonder if we'll ever have another killer winner apart from a potential scenario where they are designed to win somehow
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Post by Panda on May 7, 2023 10:35:31 GMT
It's particularly awkward given the penalty for losing a trial. The only time we had a real winner, there was an obvious choice to 'randomly' execute (Subaru, the one who tricked us and made us lose the trial). Like imagine if Darren won and I had to sentence Felix or Yves or whoever instead. It wouldn't feel satisfying for anyone involved.
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Post by Panda on May 7, 2023 20:56:53 GMT
Caitlin's ending has been added!
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Post by Kachu on May 7, 2023 21:01:37 GMT
It's particularly awkward given the penalty for losing a trial. The only time we had a real winner, there was an obvious choice to 'randomly' execute (Subaru, the one who tricked us and made us lose the trial). Like imagine if Darren won and I had to sentence Felix or Yves or whoever instead. It wouldn't feel satisfying for anyone involved. I remember being very concerned about this in the moment for a little while, because of the hostage situation. I wasn't sure if we were meant to lose and vote for someone else or just have Yves die or whatever. It would've sucked if any of those things happened (though maybe Darren would probably be happy lol) But we beat him with MAGIC so it was cool! But not having that safety net or knowing we were safe made that post trial feel really weird for a while. I don't mind not having a limit or getting really aggressive with hints the longer a trial goes or having the killer never win either. Or maybe they can win but they just leave. Nobody else dies or anything. I guess that's not a huge incentive to catch any killers, though. So maybe the rules need to be the same in universe but out of the game we all know how it'll play out?
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